Ian [0:00:00]: First and foremost, it’s about human connection.
Ian [0:00:01]: And before you get to even a state of asking around mentorship.
Ian [0:00:04]: Because from human connection comes, hey Can I ask you a question comes, hey?
Ian [0:00:09]: You wanna grab lunch sometime, then becomes the lasting relationship.
Ian [0:00:12]: I’ve been very fortunate enough to build friendships for a time through this industry.
Ian [0:00:16]: And that wasn’t necessarily sort of mentorship.
Ian [0:00:20]: You can That was simply, hey, We’re all traveling on this crazy schedule and we’re all drinking the same crappy conference coffee, and it becomes bonding, sort of local meetups have the same opportunity.
Mark [0:00:41]: Think Hey everyone.
Mark [0:00:42]: On this episode of the Identity Heroes.
Mark [0:00:44]: Gerry and I hosted Ian Glazer.
Mark [0:00:46]: Ian shared some stories about how in identity, we may have a lot of the plumbing and tools that we need, but there’s something out there right now that’s pushing us so much faster that we need to really solve this tough challenges.
Mark [0:00:55]: Ian also talked about how human identity actually is that it’s its core and how it’s really one of the most welcoming communities out there.
Mark [0:01:01]: If you wanna hear how
Ian [0:01:02]: to get involved, Let’s go ahead and listen what Ian has to say.
Mark [0:01:05]: Hey, everyone.
Mark [0:01:05]: Welcome to this episode of the Identity Heroes.
Mark [0:01:08]: My coo is today, Gerry Gebel and I are joined by someone who eats no introduction Ian Glazer.
Mark [0:01:13]: Ian welcome.
Mark [0:01:14]: Welcome.
Ian [0:01:15]: Hi, you.
Ian [0:01:15]: Thank you for having me here.
Mark [0:01:16]: Your post on Linkedin just a few days ago, really prompted this.
Mark [0:01:19]: You’re you’re your retrospective of twenty five years in the industry.
Mark [0:01:22]: And if not more to be honest and and you’ve done it all touched all than everywhere.
Mark [0:01:28]: And, like, we were just talking about the anecdotal stories.
Mark [0:01:30]: We’d love to use this episode of the Identity Heroes host to really dig into some of those stories a bit more.
Mark [0:01:36]: There was only so much could do in eight hundred characters on Linkedin post and maybe cheaper
Ian [0:01:40]: public like, but…
Ian [0:01:40]: Yeah, Like five.
Mark [0:01:42]: Awesome.
Mark [0:01:42]: Awesome.
Mark [0:01:43]: Okay.
Mark [0:01:43]: Well, here’s here’s the plan.
Mark [0:01:45]: So Gerry, you and I take folks down the path of, like, that Hero’s journey.
Mark [0:01:48]: Right?
Mark [0:01:49]: The…
Mark [0:01:49]: You the origin, the the challenges, the gauntlet and then, you know, the the team effort and and path forward.
Mark [0:01:55]: As we get started this morning, any thoughts about the your history with you?
Gerry [0:02:00]: Oh, no.
Gerry [0:02:01]: We’re…
Gerry [0:02:01]: Well, we’re gonna you know, explore some of the dark corners and they’ll, hopefully come up with some funny anecdotes that happened along the way of which there are many, many, many.
Gerry [0:02:10]: Probably too many to cover in this this session, but we’ll we’ll tease that a few of
Ian [0:02:15]: I’m sure.
Mark [0:02:16]: Love it.
Mark [0:02:16]: But Well, yeah.
Mark [0:02:17]: If I may.
Mark [0:02:18]: So what I did was I actually took down the titles from Linkedin, all the different roles you’ve held…
Mark [0:02:22]: I know.
Mark [0:02:23]: I know I know actually I paid That’s
Ian [0:02:26]: that’s a couple of minutes.
Ian [0:02:26]: And I I’ve ordered for the winter.
Mark [0:02:30]: Think a couple liberties and sm a couple together because the structure here is one we really like to figure out the origin stories.
Mark [0:02:35]: Like, how how’d you get to where you are, point b today from point a where you started, and sometimes looking at folks, the the titles and roles and positions they’ve held over that time becomes a fairly obvious one.
Mark [0:02:47]: And other times, it’s it’s the exact all over.
Ian [0:02:50]: Okay.
Ian [0:02:50]: Which one am I curiously?
Mark [0:02:54]: Let’s?
Mark [0:02:54]: Maybe we’ll leave it to the audience.
Ian [0:02:55]: If I may.
Ian [0:02:56]: I’m gonna
Mark [0:02:57]: read these real fast.
Mark [0:02:57]: We’ll see where we are.
Mark [0:02:58]: So I know that you started off and and you were studying artificial intelligence and you have a comp side degree as well, and and, I mean, very precious knowing where we are today with Ai and Gen, but nevertheless, started that path and went to becoming a network admin.
Mark [0:03:13]: Made a natural chance.
Mark [0:03:14]: And actually, a lot of this you summarized your twenty five year years, so I don’t wanna be too repetitive.
Mark [0:03:18]: I’m just going over the titles.
Mark [0:03:19]: You’re a senior sales consultant and architect.
Mark [0:03:22]: You were a senior sales engineer.
Mark [0:03:23]: You a senior product manager.
Mark [0:03:25]: You a senior director product management going very vendor and…
Ian [0:03:29]: Really it was very old when I was young.
Ian [0:03:30]: That been
Mark [0:03:33]: tell.
Mark [0:03:33]: Then you made that that the less year’s lake to becoming a senior analyst.
Mark [0:03:37]: Then and then you had a title of a research Vp.
Mark [0:03:40]: You went back client side and vendor side with Sv of identity product management.
Mark [0:03:45]: You have so many board seats that I just…
Mark [0:03:47]: I’m just gonna call board member.
Mark [0:03:48]: There’s there’s a lot.
Mark [0:03:49]: But you did found something really important along the way being Id pro and and a group that we can hopefully dig into a little bit here as well.
Mark [0:03:56]: You’ve created your own company since then you’re in the Irons faculty.
Mark [0:03:59]: And last but at least, you were now signal as the chief customer and and strategy officer.
Mark [0:04:04]: Made you feel old when you’re were young.
Mark [0:04:06]: This is twenty five years of amazing stuff.
Mark [0:04:09]: Like, what do you think?
Mark [0:04:11]: This feels pretty linear to me?
Mark [0:04:12]: Like, you knew or this is like, no.
Ian [0:04:14]: No No.
Ian [0:04:15]: No.
Ian [0:04:15]: No.
Mark [0:04:16]: Take me to away.
Ian [0:04:17]: I don’t believe in, like, oh, I have a career.
Ian [0:04:19]: Like, a career is the narrative you say looking back at what you’ve done and be like, alright.
Ian [0:04:22]: How the hell am I gonna explain this to a recruiter.
Ian [0:04:24]: Right?
Ian [0:04:25]: Like, because none of it is actually sensible.
Ian [0:04:27]: So no.
Ian [0:04:28]: I…
Ian [0:04:29]: It it’s…
Ian [0:04:29]: It things just happened.
Ian [0:04:31]: Right?
Ian [0:04:32]: And for a long time, very long time.
Ian [0:04:35]: In fact, I had the opportunity to and was fortunate enough to work with friends.
Ian [0:04:40]: And four friends and leave places for with friends to go with other friends.
Ian [0:04:44]: He is very rare in the things I’ve done in the past that I worked with strangers.
Ian [0:04:50]: And in some regards, it was great because they could, you know, my buddies could cover for me.
Ian [0:04:56]: And, you know, because not actually being great at what I do.
Ian [0:05:00]: It was always handy to have people that are like, yeah, Okay.
Ian [0:05:04]: Well we’ll share the reps.
Ian [0:05:05]: I don’t know.
Ian [0:05:08]: It was really about following interesting work and following interesting people.
Ian [0:05:12]: I.
Ian [0:05:13]: I don’t think there’s anything complicated on that.
Mark [0:05:15]: Okay.
Mark [0:05:15]: I mean…
Mark [0:05:15]: And and I I I jumped to the conclusion of it being linear.
Mark [0:05:18]: I I think you you even said in your post about it being young and innovation and in bras.
Mark [0:05:22]: And then following just that direction.
Mark [0:05:24]: Just going where things led you, without having a lot of foresight into where I was taking, but it sounds like working with friends and really smart people surrounding yourself with, people could learn from was was a a path.
Ian [0:05:35]: Yeah.
Ian [0:05:35]: For sure.
Ian [0:05:36]: I mean, you know, present company notwithstanding or withstanding I don’t know which…
Ian [0:05:39]: What Gerry what’s the appropriate phrase here.
Ian [0:05:41]: So for…
Ian [0:05:42]: Those I was playing at home, Gerry was my boss when I was at Burton group.
Ian [0:05:47]: And that was I had been enamored with Burton group and with analysts.
Ian [0:05:55]: And the work they were doing an identity, especially, and thought that seems like a great job.
Ian [0:06:00]: And there was a while when, like, I really wanted that job a lot.
Ian [0:06:05]: But there was always bad timing because I wanted to go work on Gerry’s team, Gerry and Bob Blake, and, like, I wanna be on that team.
Ian [0:06:11]: And like, no head count then there was head up that I had got a gig I liked one you.
Ian [0:06:18]: And then at some point, at least in my memory, Laurie Robinson calls me and says, look, you really need to talk to Gerry.
Ian [0:06:26]: We have head care of.
Ian [0:06:27]: Like, you gotta come on board.
Ian [0:06:28]: Like, I’m really liking my gig.
Ian [0:06:30]: She’s like, okay, but talk to him.
Mark [0:06:32]: Like, okay.
Ian [0:06:33]: I’m gonna do that.
Ian [0:06:33]: And then, bob, blake, calls me up and basically says, look, I don’t care whether it’s this July or next.
Ian [0:06:40]: But you’re coming on board and otherwise, it will put any start if you go to out of business.
Ian [0:06:44]: Directs.
Ian [0:06:48]: Yeah.
Ian [0:06:48]: Lightly sort of, I don’t know.
Ian [0:06:52]: Goo asked like, you know, you’re coming board like it or not get in the boat.
Ian [0:06:56]: But I became that’s how.
Ian [0:06:59]: I became a Britain analyst.
Ian [0:07:00]: There there was a precursor story to that.
Ian [0:07:02]: But my first report was on access certification.
Ian [0:07:06]: It’s probably still in circulation shutter, shutter shutter.
Ian [0:07:10]: And I got it done reasonably early in the cycle?
Ian [0:07:15]: And I turned it in and and Bob Blake was the the research.
Ian [0:07:20]: What was the actual title and research direct research director.
Ian [0:07:24]: Yeah.
Ian [0:07:24]: That’s right.
Ian [0:07:25]: Yeah.
Ian [0:07:25]: So they were the ar of quality.
Ian [0:07:26]: So you had to review that report.
Ian [0:07:28]: Mh.
Ian [0:07:28]: And he’s, like, what do you do it?
Ian [0:07:30]: I’m like, what well it’s done?
Ian [0:07:33]: Do you like, yep.
Ian [0:07:34]: But it’s like, there’s, like, a month left in the quarter.
Ian [0:07:37]: Like, what do you What are you doing?
Ian [0:07:38]: I’m like, I’m just turning in it.
Ian [0:07:40]: He’s was like, no.
Ian [0:07:41]: This is not how we operate.
Ian [0:07:43]: Like, what do you mean?
Ian [0:07:43]: He’s like, no.
Ian [0:07:44]: It’s the night before the end of the quarter.
Ian [0:07:46]: That’s when he turned it.
Ian [0:07:46]: It was the concept of the golden dump truck, which, at the end of the quarter, all the analysts would just dump all these reports out.
Ian [0:07:53]: You know, in the last moment.
Ian [0:07:55]: And Gerry’s quote to him was…
Ian [0:07:57]: I think in comments.
Ian [0:07:58]: And the doc was, like, don’t teach him your bad habits.
Gerry [0:08:01]: Yes.
Gerry [0:08:01]: Something like that.
Gerry [0:08:02]: Yeah.
Ian [0:08:02]: Yeah.
Ian [0:08:02]: So it was it was interesting to I learned lot.
Gerry [0:08:07]: I mean.
Gerry [0:08:07]: There…
Gerry [0:08:08]: There was a certain certain number of analysts that yeah, to Ian point would just pull an all night and dropped the report on the last day, you know, that that it was required.
Gerry [0:08:18]: And some some of them not present company being personally excluded.
Gerry [0:08:23]: Some of them would be cr lucid in their just stream of consciousness that they typed out, and it was amazing.
Gerry [0:08:32]: But for us mere Mortals that was
Ian [0:08:34]: others where threw impacts something else.
Ian [0:08:35]: Yes.
Gerry [0:08:39]: But Ian, you said, in earlier, you said a couple of things that that called me here here, one was that you typically would would not go to a new job where you were working with strangers.
Gerry [0:08:50]: So that tells me, you know, relationships that you build over time, especially early in your career?
Gerry [0:08:55]: It’s super important.
Gerry [0:08:57]: Right I I’ve always thought that you should you should strive to get to a point where you don’t have to circulate a Cv or resume to get your next job.
Gerry [0:09:06]: You know that it should be, you know, coming from the people that you know already.
Gerry [0:09:10]: So that that’s super important.
Gerry [0:09:12]: When did you feel like?
Gerry [0:09:14]: Do you you were to that stage or to that point?
Ian [0:09:17]: I don’t think I was really ever at that stage until much later in my so called career.
Ian [0:09:22]: I would say it slightly differently, which is Yeah.
Ian [0:09:25]: That is an fortunate place to be.
Ian [0:09:27]: Right?
Ian [0:09:27]: If you were at that state and and that happened in Salesforce.
Ian [0:09:30]: Essentially, Hr call me It was like, apparently, we’re hiring you.
Ian [0:09:33]: Can you send this a resume it was sort of the…
Ian [0:09:35]: It was an interesting reversed process.
Ian [0:09:38]: But that’s a long time to get you.
Ian [0:09:40]: Right?
Ian [0:09:40]: More it was about people that were willing to come and tell you about stuff.
Ian [0:09:49]: That was going on, like, hey, you know, this is happening or you should beat these other folks or what have you.
Ian [0:09:56]: And, you know, at the time, this is when this is when blogging in the identity space.
Ian [0:10:04]: Which a really big…
Ian [0:10:05]: Big…
Ian [0:10:05]: It was the birth of blogging in a lot of ways.
Ian [0:10:07]: Like those errors.
Ian [0:10:08]: When, like, blogger dot com was rambling him.
Ian [0:10:10]: And so there were these people that you would read, you know, pat Patterson, for example, and blake and cameron and others, and I just started throwing my voice out there.
Ian [0:10:21]: And I think more than anything else that and also at generous abuse of my liver, it was a, way to to get things out there.
Ian [0:10:31]: I mean, the real reason…
Ian [0:10:33]: The actual reason why analyst is because had catalyst back in the day when was in San Francisco, in the O Street Hilton.
Ian [0:10:42]: I had for some reason, and I do not know how, in the middle of the day, gotten up the gum to go talk to analysts, which was not my remit.
Ian [0:10:53]: And that was, like, at the time, like, oh, my god.
Ian [0:10:55]: Those are the people on stage.
Ian [0:10:56]: You have no reason to talk to them, and they have no reason to listen to you.
Ian [0:10:59]: But nonetheless, I think it was Was either She was either Gerry or it was Nick Nichols or is Mike twitter.
Ian [0:11:07]: One of those folks are all sort of legends in the industry.
Ian [0:11:11]: It’s like hey.
Ian [0:11:12]: There’s this speak easy thing up the street that I wanna go check out tonight.
Ian [0:11:15]: Would you all be interested?
Ian [0:11:16]: They’re, like, yeah.
Gerry [0:11:18]: Well, that’s
Ian [0:11:18]: a good idea.
Ian [0:11:18]: And so we go to this thing.
Ian [0:11:21]: And this is this is now in the tenderloin.
Ian [0:11:25]: Now we like, you’re that one more block west one apparel, which is like, Yeah.
Mark [0:11:30]: That’s two hundred feet from Iffy.
Mark [0:11:31]: Yep.
Mark [0:11:32]: Gotcha.
Mark [0:11:32]: Yeah.
Mark [0:11:32]: You’re, like,
Ian [0:11:34]: okay.
Ian [0:11:34]: And sure enough, speak easy.
Ian [0:11:37]: It’s amazing.
Ian [0:11:38]: It’s I think still there.
Ian [0:11:39]: It’s been a while.
Ian [0:11:40]: And hanging out in the library room that they had.
Ian [0:11:44]: I was like, you know, hey, Gerry.
Ian [0:11:45]: This later there You mean, you know, I would Would I’d love to…
Ian [0:11:49]: I think it’d be great idea for me to become an analyst at some point in time.
Ian [0:11:52]: And in my mind, he goes, yeah.
Ian [0:11:54]: Yeah.
Ian [0:11:54]: It’s a good idea.
Ian [0:11:55]: At that time he became an analyst.
Ian [0:11:57]: Now I’m sure there’s other steps in involved.
Ian [0:11:59]: But I was the big one.
Ian [0:12:01]: Oh, yeah.
Ian [0:12:02]: I had to write a writing.
Ian [0:12:02]: I a write a writing sample, which I found and posted in recently, like a year or two ago and someone was like, this is utter crap, Like we just figured was gives you
Gerry [0:12:13]: did you repo that?
Gerry [0:12:14]: I I missed.
Mark [0:12:15]: I did.
Ian [0:12:15]: I think I wrote whole thing about using negative policies to describe, like, identity stuff.
Ian [0:12:20]: Like, instead of saying, like, here’s the things you can’t have Like, one of the I mean write to, you know, like, why don’t we describe conditions under which you can’t.
Mark [0:12:26]: Exclusionary.
Mark [0:12:26]: Okay?
Ian [0:12:27]: And, an individual who, is a absolute wonder in identity under to coat in the Netherlands.
Ian [0:12:34]: I was like, oh, my god.
Ian [0:12:36]: This is horrible.
Ian [0:12:36]: Thank God.
Ian [0:12:37]: You never did this.
Ian [0:12:38]: Like, you know, it’s always good to get That one from the audience.
Mark [0:12:44]: I mean, the…
Mark [0:12:44]: You know, sometimes when we we’ve asked that high career defining moments or things where the audience is thinking, Oh, there was like, this big moment was an incredible project and, like, this huge thing that that got where you are.
Mark [0:12:55]: And here we’re hearing speak easy, and and and having the gum to get up and talk to Analysts You thought were at a different level and it turns out they were super approachable.
Mark [0:13:03]: And not only that, you got welcomed into the fold.
Ian [0:13:06]: Yeah.
Ian [0:13:06]: And then it was all very blurry.
Ian [0:13:08]: And then, we are flash forward, and Ga has just acquired Britain, and we are in full prep for what was what was going to be the next catalyst which was ending up gonna be, like, the second to last catalyst it turns out.
Ian [0:13:25]: And Gerry I were doing a talk and at some point.
Ian [0:13:27]: I’m like, Gerry, we’ve really gotta work on these slides.
Ian [0:13:30]: He’s like, no.
Ian [0:13:31]: I’m like, what?
Ian [0:13:32]: He’s like, no.
Ian [0:13:32]: I don’t wanna do this talk and, like, Oh, alright.
Ian [0:13:35]: Well, I mean, I’ll, I can stop somebody he’s, like, no.
Ian [0:13:37]: You’re doing it so low.
Ian [0:13:38]: I’m out.
Ian [0:13:39]: I’m like, what?
Ian [0:13:39]: He’s like, yeah.
Ian [0:13:41]: And that’s when he he left, Burton Group Ga to go accidents.
Ian [0:13:45]: Right?
Gerry [0:13:46]: That’s right.
Gerry [0:13:46]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:13:47]: I think my tenure at Ga is what?
Gerry [0:13:49]: Five weeks or so.
Gerry [0:13:50]: So.
Ian [0:13:51]: You really you you really you really got a lot of use of that email address, but Right.
Ian [0:13:54]: That’s right.
Mark [0:13:56]: I’ll the along one.
Ian [0:13:58]: And that story continues.
Mark [0:13:59]: And and so you’ve done…
Mark [0:14:00]: So actually, both of you have had multiple experiences, both client side, vendor side, and on analyst side.
Mark [0:14:07]: Is there any particular side of all those.
Mark [0:14:09]: That’s a lot of sides I get.
Mark [0:14:11]: And and you also sat on a lot of boards and you’ve done a lot of working group, and you’ve really shape the industry.
Mark [0:14:15]: Is there any one placed?
Mark [0:14:16]: You really felt, like, you were, like, it just felt the the most natural or is it all just been, like, they all feel good and and it’s…
Mark [0:14:23]: You the the the experience bring from one makes you better in another.
Mark [0:14:27]: Any any thoughts on that?
Mark [0:14:28]: That was a weird question.
Mark [0:14:30]: You can say no.
Mark [0:14:31]: I mean,
Ian [0:14:33]: nice, Gerry.
Ian [0:14:33]: So clearly, I’m answering this first to see go.
Mark [0:14:35]: No.
Mark [0:14:35]: I’m giving you
Ian [0:14:36]: the over right there.
Gerry [0:14:38]: Can you’re the guest?
Gerry [0:14:38]: You’re the yeah.
Ian [0:14:39]: One part.
Ian [0:14:39]: Look, know in so far as…
Ian [0:14:44]: Except with one exception, I have been extremely fortunate to be surrounded even in cases when I didn’t know a lot of people by really, really quality folks.
Ian [0:14:54]: Just on the general human level as well as in in a professional sense.
Ian [0:14:59]: And because of that, it feels good.
Ian [0:15:02]: Like, if you’re doing good work with good people, feels great.
Ian [0:15:05]: Even if you’re doing things that is a bit of a s with good fun people, like, owning yet another connector for Ibm ti identity manager and trying to figure out why the hell, it doesn’t work with peoples soft empty version number because they decided to change something.
Ian [0:15:22]: Like, that’s a s.
Ian [0:15:24]: But if you’re sharing by good people, it’s a lot easier to get through it together, and it becomes a lot more fun.
Ian [0:15:29]: And I’ve just been very fortunate being able to string some of those things together and also take some of the best parts of those experiences and figure out how I can put them into practice as I keep rolling forward.
Gerry [0:15:42]: Well, I think I think and also in your…
Gerry [0:15:44]: As you get a little bit longer in in on in years and get more of these experiences, I think it’s very.
Gerry [0:15:51]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:15:52]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:15:52]: I’m trying.
Gerry [0:15:53]: I yeah.
Gerry [0:15:54]: I think it’s great to have the ability to share that with others, you know, I think, you know, as we’re trying to, you, record some of those anecdotes here of of the, you know, the oral history.
Gerry [0:16:06]: You’ll be able to to share your experiences with others.
Gerry [0:16:09]: It may not always be the right thing that you recommend or the right answer at the moment, but it’s, you know, your experience and what you’ve gone through and, I think, you know, the folks coming up behind us will always should always appreciate that.
Ian [0:16:23]: There is a sort of on…
Ian [0:16:26]: Not une.
Ian [0:16:29]: But I don’t think it’s it’s, like, less than amplified or could be amplified aspect of the the actual humans in the the history.
Ian [0:16:38]: In the sense that, like, you look at say, a standard, and I’m a take an arbitrary one here.
Ian [0:16:43]: Let’s take service provisioning market language, Sp.
Ian [0:16:46]: Which was a bit of a lead balloon.
Ian [0:16:51]: Oh.
Ian [0:16:51]: But there was a lot of humans involved in.
Ian [0:16:54]: And like, there’s reasons why there are things that are in there.
Ian [0:16:57]: And that’s true of all standards.
Ian [0:16:58]: Like, the human aspect of it.
Ian [0:17:00]: It’s not face entities.
Ian [0:17:02]: Corporations
Mark [0:17:04]: doing this.
Ian [0:17:05]: Yeah.
Ian [0:17:05]: You know, it corporations that often are the sponsors of the work, and that’s incredibly important, but there’s also equally just as passionate individual contributors out there.
Ian [0:17:16]: It’s a harder road, but it’s a very powerful and and meaningful one.
Ian [0:17:20]: But there’s humans in these processes.
Ian [0:17:22]: And it’s not obvious from just reading an Ie etf draft.
Ian [0:17:28]: Like, what went into it and why?
Ian [0:17:30]: And, you know, the thing that I, I I was talking about this…
Ian [0:17:34]: We think over at Id Pro about, not only just the why it why these standards happen, but, like, how would you actually use this thing?
Ian [0:17:42]: Like, it is not obvious.
Ian [0:17:44]: In many cases.
Ian [0:17:44]: You where you’re like?
Ian [0:17:45]: Yeah.
Ian [0:17:47]: I know exactly.
Ian [0:17:48]: That’s that’s a it’s a it’s a wrench.
Ian [0:17:50]: It’s the shape.
Ian [0:17:50]: I know exactly what to do with it.
Ian [0:17:51]: In many cases, you look at Ce?
Ian [0:17:53]: I got no idea.
Ian [0:17:55]: Like, can someone explain to me what you would use this thing for the like, oh.
Ian [0:17:59]: Okay.
Ian [0:17:59]: That’s actually pretty cool.
Ian [0:18:00]: But man, there are some magical people in that industry in this the standards world who can look at something like, I know exactly what I’m gonna do with this thing.
Ian [0:18:08]: Wow.
Ian [0:18:08]: That is not me, but it’s the human part of it.
Ian [0:18:10]: That’s really, really interesting.
Ian [0:18:11]: I happened to be last week at Bai authenticate conference.
Ian [0:18:16]: Out in San Diego, and there’s a bunch of folks that are, you know, around a lot of the fight a related standards, but being more generally.
Ian [0:18:25]: And there is a a healthy amount of rem about the humans involved in the process because the world might see the It draft.
Ian [0:18:35]: They might see what open And produces the rest of us hopefully get to see some of the process and learn from that, but also some of the humans involved and and and learn from them in the process.
Mark [0:18:47]: Now this…
Mark [0:18:47]: This I mean, as we think that, Gerry, you were touching on networking and the value of that as well.
Mark [0:18:51]: I think that every super duo is actually underneath it all and the in the coat and the costume and the cape because is a human, and that’s…
Mark [0:18:57]: That’s…
Mark [0:18:57]: I mean, I think, but a lot of people need to member is that, like, we see on stage all the time.
Mark [0:19:02]: Ran both you guys actually and
Ian [0:19:04]: all I say.
Ian [0:19:05]: I I will get better at this I promise.
Mark [0:19:08]: I’m gonna say
Ian [0:19:08]: you’re know one put bullets on slides.
Ian [0:19:10]: It’s…
Ian [0:19:10]: It’s common.
Ian [0:19:10]: I swear.
Mark [0:19:11]: I’m gonna set you up for a fan club.
Mark [0:19:12]: You’re gonna have, but I…
Mark [0:19:14]: But it does sound like approaching the the the speakers and just making yourself known and and just that networking is is really critical.
Mark [0:19:19]: In everyone…
Mark [0:19:20]: Every point of the career.
Mark [0:19:21]: Right?
Mark [0:19:21]: Now not just starting out.
Mark [0:19:22]: But even maybe more so when you’re starting.
Mark [0:19:24]: You never know.
Ian [0:19:25]: With the the the unfortunate thing about the world we live in right now is that part of this…
Ian [0:19:30]: The most important things…
Ian [0:19:31]: It feels like are the human connections, The opportunities to make this.
Ian [0:19:34]: For a long time, and I think still today, a lot of those opportunities for themselves at conferences.
Ian [0:19:39]: Those are pricey affairs.
Ian [0:19:41]: Those require travel approvals.
Ian [0:19:43]: Those require a lot of things that not everyone especially when they’re younger and their career have the opportunity to get to.
Ian [0:19:50]: So this is why the work that we do with the digital identity advancement foundation is so important is how do we get people to the places?
Ian [0:19:57]: So that they can stand around the same coffee earns as some of these so called legends?
Ian [0:20:04]: And share a laugh at a mediocre conference, you know, meal and and hear a great talk and get some feedback.
Ian [0:20:15]: And so to me that’s super important because there are real barriers to participation.
Ian [0:20:20]: And, yes, it’s easier now that you can get, you know, time on a Zoom with someone or at least the ability to get on a zoom with someone.
Ian [0:20:27]: But that’s real different than, like, what happens in conferences.
Ian [0:20:31]: And I leave aside all the shenanigans, and all the von, the actual stuff that happens in the rooms, and the stuff that happens in the hallways, and that’s incredibly hard to replicate outside of actually being physically there.
Ian [0:20:47]: And that’s that’s a challenge.
Ian [0:20:49]: That’s a challenge we have to address.
Gerry [0:20:51]: Yes Good.
Gerry [0:20:51]: Can you expand a little more on the on the foundation that you just mentioned, you know, for folks that are not aware?
Ian [0:20:57]: Yes.
Ian [0:20:57]: The digital identity advancement foundation was originally started actually sort of inc if you will inside of the open Id foundation?
Ian [0:21:06]: When Kim Cameron had passed away, he was so important to the industry, but he also did so much work inside of Oi, that they created a scholarship in his honor, it was essentially to get young people to conferences.
Ian [0:21:20]: And at the time, the executive director was saying, you know, this is great.
Ian [0:21:25]: It’s super important, but it’s also not our niche.
Ian [0:21:27]: Right?
Ian [0:21:27]: Open definitions about creating standards.
Ian [0:21:29]: It’s in performance testing and do a lot of great work there.
Ian [0:21:31]: And they had approached my and a few other people thinking, hey, maybe Id pro could take this over or is there’s some other home for that is more mission oriented rant.
Ian [0:21:40]: And after some thinking about it myself, Alan Foster and Aaron Crow decided the best thing to do is actually go create any new foundation for purpose.
Ian [0:21:50]: So we have two awards inside of that.
Ian [0:21:52]: The weren’t honoring Kim, again, getting young people to events.
Ian [0:21:56]: We’ve brought people from B baton from Senegal from Chile all around the world to events.
Ian [0:22:05]: And then we created subsequently, the victoria Bert award honoring our good friend, helping people participate in standards and technical standards work because Although they may be and most likely aren’t a little bit on in their career.
Ian [0:22:20]: Right?
Ian [0:22:21]: They’ve been doing this for a while.
Ian [0:22:22]: They may not work for an organization that’s, like, I’m willing to send you to wherever Ie etf has got the next meeting to advance your spec.
Ian [0:22:30]: Or be able to bring you to I, which is happening this week, at least as we’re recording and be able to socialize some of these concepts.
Ian [0:22:38]: Like, that’s a that’s a challenge.
Ian [0:22:41]: Right?
Ian [0:22:41]: And especially now when standards are so important at actually a national security level that we are investing and them investing in people who are want to take this job on and want to participate.
Ian [0:22:54]: So we feel very strongly about trying to find ways to get more people there.
Ian [0:22:59]: And so that’s what D works.
Mark [0:23:01]: You mentioned Id Pro, and I know that you were…
Mark [0:23:03]: I mean, had a founding exceeding in making that happen And I hopefully, you have seen some other episodes every single member we’ve done almost a dozen entities now.
Mark [0:23:11]: Every single identity hero that we spoken with.
Mark [0:23:14]: I said, the very first thing that anybody should be paying attention to as Id prep, that they should join.
Mark [0:23:19]: They should be a member.
Mark [0:23:20]: They should participate and it’s it is a way to do this.
Mark [0:23:22]: Maybe, I don’t know wanna say low cost, but Low cost is perhaps the best way to describe it.
Mark [0:23:27]: Right?
Mark [0:23:28]: It’s an approachable way to stay involved with
Ian [0:23:30]: I would say we it is…
Ian [0:23:31]: It it it affords with individuals of all tenure, an opportunity for a safe space to ask questions.
Ian [0:23:39]: And get answers from people sometimes in conflict with one another, but all reason.
Ian [0:23:46]: People that have I’ve been doing this for a while.
Ian [0:23:48]: People that are just figuring it out.
Ian [0:23:50]: And it is incredibly valuable in that regard.
Ian [0:23:54]: So whether you’re new to your career an identity or your seasoned doesn’t matter.
Ian [0:23:59]: Everybody needs a safe space to look like a fool sometimes.
Ian [0:24:02]: And it’s really to me, like, I absolutely and very genuinely often will ask questions in Id Pro.
Ian [0:24:11]: Because I don’t know the answers to something that I wanna understand, like, hey, give me a use case for how, Raw are actually used in practice.
Ian [0:24:23]: Right?
Ian [0:24:23]: And get people with real practice real experience talking about those things.
Ian [0:24:27]: Similar to people saying like, how do you blu in ent enter Id into doing this?
Ian [0:24:32]: Right?
Ian [0:24:33]: Does anyone you have, like, the right mall that I’m supposed to select to make this happen.
Ian [0:24:38]: And everything in between?
Ian [0:24:39]: And it’s it’s really on top of that.
Gerry [0:24:43]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:24:43]: It’s really didn’t ask me anything kind of place where you can just…
Ian [0:24:47]: It’s ask everyone everything.
Ian [0:24:48]: It doesn’t make in that regard.
Ian [0:24:50]: Kinda the best part that it is that, there’s a there’s a certain equalization about it in the sense that, like, no one is necessarily revered or treated any differently.
Ian [0:25:04]: So you’re gonna get the same kind of answer whether you are brand new or whether you’re E or George Fletcher, whomever, like, people are gonna enhance because people wanna get back and they recognize that.
Ian [0:25:17]: And it’s something that I think everyone innate feels.
Gerry [0:25:22]: And you…
Gerry [0:25:22]: And and yeah
Ian [0:25:23]: part of it.
Gerry [0:25:24]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:25:24]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:25:24]: For sure.
Gerry [0:25:25]: And Ian and, you never know what thing is gonna light stuff on fire.
Ian [0:25:29]: Oh, my I mean,
Gerry [0:25:30]: there was there was a question out there recently.
Gerry [0:25:31]: I forget exactly what it was.
Gerry [0:25:33]: But there were literally…
Gerry [0:25:34]: I think two hundred and fifty replies to it.
Mark [0:25:37]: The new t back.
Mark [0:25:38]: Yes.
Mark [0:25:38]: It it started.
Mark [0:25:39]: Yeah.
Mark [0:25:40]: Anyway.
Mark [0:25:40]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:25:41]: So, yeah.
Gerry [0:25:42]: You do For something out there.
Ian [0:25:44]: Good it for for a spicy response that allows people to that pile along.
Ian [0:25:48]: But you’re absolutely right.
Ian [0:25:50]: Like, there will be some things like, I feel like there was a really interesting and deep rabbit hole around Sam that recently, had opened up.
Ian [0:25:58]: And this is where you also get to see exposure to other parts of the industry you don’t.
Ian [0:26:04]: Right?
Ian [0:26:04]: And so the reason why I think about Sam Think about that.
Ian [0:26:06]: That statement is as an analyst, I learned absolutely the most about identity from higher education and research customers.
Ian [0:26:14]: They have the hardest identity challenges that I have ever seen to this day I have ever seen.
Ian [0:26:23]: And that the novelty at which they approach them using what from many people’s perspectives would be a slightly outdated stack of technologies.
Ian [0:26:33]: But at the scale, and and at the absolutely complicated regulatory requirements that they have as well.
Ian [0:26:43]: It’s amazing.
Ian [0:26:44]: So, like, that’s why it’s always interesting to watch people come from totally different industries answering a question like, I never thought about why someone would do it like that.
Ian [0:26:54]: That’s amazing.
Ian [0:26:55]: It’s amazing.
Mark [0:26:57]: Yeah.
Mark [0:26:57]: Well, okay.
Mark [0:26:57]: So if I may, I’m gonna do a little bit of a segue just a…
Mark [0:27:00]: In the interest of time to give us a little bit on your Hero’s journey arc here, And and I wanna get into a plot prayers.
Ian [0:27:06]: Okay.
Ian [0:27:06]: Go.
Mark [0:27:07]: Okay.
Mark [0:27:07]: Plot.
Mark [0:27:07]: I’m gonna do my best.
Mark [0:27:08]: Thinking about plot twist.
Mark [0:27:09]: What didn’t we see coming in twenty twenty four that we’re now facing in twenty twenty five twenty six going forward?
Mark [0:27:16]: And, I I was the one answer it myself, But your thoughts.
Mark [0:27:21]: What didn’t we see coming?
Mark [0:27:22]: What’s the plot twist that that we’re encountering right now that…
Ian [0:27:25]: I think the rapid clap cal classification of traditional approaches to identity?
Ian [0:27:31]: The now ever increasing and accelerating awareness that we can’t keep doing what we’ve been doing and expect different outcomes.
Ian [0:27:41]: And that the look, we’ve been doing stuff the same way since en Ron and sox.
Ian [0:27:47]: Right?
Ian [0:27:48]: It’s coming up on twenty five years.
Ian [0:27:49]: It’s a generations worth of years.
Ian [0:27:51]: And getting to that, wow, that’s not gonna carry us into the cloud era, let alone agent.
Ian [0:28:01]: Right?
Ian [0:28:03]: And that that feels like a, should have probably seen it coming given the rapid of innovation and the way adversaries are using admission, the way enterprises are demanding the use of that innovation.
Ian [0:28:19]: Yeah.
Ian [0:28:20]: I think that was the one that really caught me of, like, things have to change.
Ian [0:28:23]: They have to change in a hurry and people are recognizing that.
Ian [0:28:26]: And now it’s just becoming a compounding sort of thing.
Ian [0:28:30]: Like, I feel like we’ll really start to see this through next year, but the speed at which identity systems operate has got to dramatically increase.
Ian [0:28:41]: We’re not gonna access a…
Ian [0:28:44]: Is sort of request and certify our way out of this whole.
Ian [0:28:47]: And that three with something really special.
Gerry [0:28:50]: Well, I think I think people were, you know, talking about that for a while Ian, but but we could tolerate it.
Gerry [0:28:57]: You know, we could we could tolerate those legacy system still, but up until now, I think…
Gerry [0:29:01]: Yeah know, I think now we’re…
Gerry [0:29:02]: We’ve hit that breaking point where…
Gerry [0:29:04]: No.
Gerry [0:29:04]: This just won’t work anymore.
Ian [0:29:06]: I will be curious to see how it manifests in the coming years.
Ian [0:29:10]: Is it going to be is is Ai, sort of the tail that’s wag the dog or not?
Ian [0:29:18]: Because we have an Bubble, which likely probably in some amount of one.
Ian [0:29:23]: What does that do?
Ian [0:29:24]: I don’t think it changes the need for or continuous identity.
Ian [0:29:27]: I don’t think it changes the need for our identity infrastructure to respond more rapidly to changes in context.
Mark [0:29:34]: But there’s also this element of maybe taking what we’ve already learned and and and putting the these proven principles against the gen.
Mark [0:29:41]: Is there is there place of versus having to start fresh and just do something wholesale new.
Mark [0:29:46]: We we probably are having to figure out how to steer
Ian [0:29:49]: debbie almost you know why we keep reinventing standards.
Ian [0:29:53]: Right?
Ian [0:29:54]: Like, I think it was eve.
Ian [0:29:55]: Gonna attribute to this Steve.
Ian [0:29:57]: I could be wrong about this, which is, the reason why we keep reinventing the wheels.
Ian [0:30:01]: Eventually you get around one.
Ian [0:30:02]: And this is true of standards.
Ian [0:30:05]: This is true of our approach.
Ian [0:30:07]: It’s like we keep iterating on these things and we’ve gotten past these sort of octagon shaped wheels to a mostly round shaped wheel, but not round enough.
Ian [0:30:16]: Right?
Ian [0:30:17]: Not with the kind of tolerances we need to have that friction free experience, that timely experience.
Ian [0:30:22]: To serve both gen and consumer needs.
Ian [0:30:25]: So, yeah, Like, we’re gonna keep reiterating on these things and some things are gonna fall by the way wayside it.
Ian [0:30:30]: And a lot of things are gonna have to get created too.
Mark [0:30:33]: The the speed and and I think the the velocity and the change is is is the thing that’s, like, just unprecedented.
Mark [0:30:37]: It’s like, as a product marketer, you know, I a lot of that competitive intelligence and in market research, and it just seems like every Monday morning.
Mark [0:30:44]: It’s not just, like, there’s something new.
Mark [0:30:47]: It’s, like, the entire thing has changed yet again.
Mark [0:30:49]: Like, that that’s how quickly we’re we’re all new right now.
Ian [0:30:52]: I mean, case point between essentially, like, April fifteenth and June one and then June one to, like, July fifteenth, the amount of change in the Mc spec or so called back was dramatic from an identity perspective.
Ian [0:31:06]: And they changed yet again.
Ian [0:31:07]: And so we’ll be you if you’re an enterprise architect
Gerry [0:31:11]: to be like,
Ian [0:31:11]: no No.
Ian [0:31:11]: This is my architecture.
Ian [0:31:12]: Oh, damn it.
Ian [0:31:13]: Hold on.
Ian [0:31:13]: No.
Ian [0:31:13]: No This is my…
Ian [0:31:14]: You guys stop it.
Ian [0:31:16]: It’s like I to write boxes and arrows down.
Ian [0:31:18]: Stop it.
Ian [0:31:19]: But the reality is it’s not gonna stop.
Ian [0:31:20]: And so now it’s about what are building blocks.
Ian [0:31:22]: What are you know, essentially principles of design, and what are basic tenants we can cling to.
Ian [0:31:28]: And I think that’s true with and without identity as well.
Ian [0:31:31]: They you know.
Gerry [0:31:32]: Well, one thing I’ll I’ll say, Ian is that the…
Gerry [0:31:35]: What I see as the collective brain power in the industry that’s…
Gerry [0:31:39]: Focused on, you know, what is the right Mc approach and architecture and standard set of standards and so on.
Gerry [0:31:46]: You know, the the amount of focus of that brain power is, like, nothing I’ve seen before.
Gerry [0:31:50]: You know, it’s like, it seems like, there there are so many eyeballs in and brain cells working on that right now and that within an intensity that you don’t normally see.
Gerry [0:32:01]: Does that sound right?
Gerry [0:32:02]: I think there
Ian [0:32:04]: is something to that for sure.
Ian [0:32:05]: And I think the interesting thing about it is the identity is very much at the core of a lot of these conversations even in its absence.
Ian [0:32:16]: And so, if you haven’t seen it go and watch not Sac more as latest talk.
Ian [0:32:22]: Because he’s saying, look, this is the year, verify credentials really become a thing.
Ian [0:32:27]: And the reason why is because Ai, and he’s actually then looking at Ap two, which is essentially an e commerce Ai.
Ian [0:32:35]: Standard.
Ian [0:32:36]: Saying, look, it’s cod these kinds of identity concepts like intent and consent and these things in Vcs.
Ian [0:32:42]: And I’m looking at this going, oh, man and that is real novel application of something that we’ve gotta go solve or to be able also something we need to to do long needed to do, around delegation on behalf of a variety of things like that.
Ian [0:32:56]: And, you know, of course it’s gonna be now.
Ian [0:32:58]: Just gonna figure that out and make it understandable to everyone.
Ian [0:33:02]: But, like, yeah.
Ian [0:33:03]: A lot of really interesting not only innovation happening, but innovation happening that is so close to what we do or what we need to be doing versus we’ve been so obsessed with plumbing.
Ian [0:33:15]: I identity even been real good about plumbing.
Ian [0:33:17]: We spent the last twenty five years working on plumbing.
Ian [0:33:19]: And it’s good enough in a lot of ways.
Ian [0:33:20]: Okay.
Ian [0:33:21]: Now what me to build.
Ian [0:33:22]: You know, great Camden roll quote of we haven’t really solved a lot in identity, but we’ve now built all the tools we need.
Ian [0:33:29]: And now we can go solve something.
Ian [0:33:32]: And that was a few years ago, and I think she was right, and we’ll continue to be right.
Mark [0:33:36]: Interesting.
Mark [0:33:36]: I like that.
Mark [0:33:36]: Well, do you you you mentioned is we’re thinking that the Mc spec it if things have changed and it’s, like, things about, age agent workflows that or their identity base or it’s like the noted lack of identity?
Mark [0:33:47]: If if I were to ask you, you know, when you were doing work both clients and and and vendor side Is you’re thinking really on vendor side Like, how do you communicate the value of identity within the organization?
Mark [0:33:58]: Like, we ask our heroes to say, you know, how do you get other parts of the organization to realize the importance and value?
Mark [0:34:05]: Do you think it’s amplified even more so now?
Mark [0:34:07]: And my…
Mark [0:34:07]: What advice might you give about that?
Ian [0:34:10]: I absolutely love it when you ask a hard question, Mark, Gerry go straight for the coffee?
Ian [0:34:13]: Know the area of I’ve he’s gonna to this damn question.
Ian [0:34:17]: That’s that’s the that’s the c move.
Ian [0:34:19]: Oh, my gosh.
Ian [0:34:21]: That is amazing.
Ian [0:34:22]: I think that it is easier to tell the value of identities story.
Ian [0:34:27]: Now.
Ian [0:34:28]: Than it was possibly ever in that.
Ian [0:34:32]: It is no longer an esoteric thing?
Ian [0:34:34]: Because when someone’s like, okay.
Ian [0:34:36]: How do we…
Ian [0:34:37]: I’m gonna need to know in case this agent goes wonky, who is it acting on behalf of?
Ian [0:34:43]: That’s an identity problem.
Ian [0:34:45]: When I think about customer experience and getting them a personalized experience that is both high enough assurance for our regulatory requirements, but also sort of slick and shiny enough for an Apple and Google sort of, Ux, if you will.
Ian [0:35:08]: That becomes identity problem at some point in time.
Ian [0:35:10]: Right?
Ian [0:35:11]: Because you have to balance you.
Ian [0:35:12]: The identity practice have to balance those needs of assurance who needs of customization and personalization with consent, like, you’re the excess of those things.
Ian [0:35:20]: And that to me is really powerful.
Ian [0:35:23]: And we have had, again, still it continue will have.
Ian [0:35:28]: Breach at that have strong identity, implications.
Ian [0:35:33]: Right?
Ian [0:35:34]: And it’s not just anymore Oh, they should have turned on Mfa.
Ian [0:35:38]: Right?
Ian [0:35:38]: That’s given.
Ian [0:35:39]: It’s that plus, you know, maybe leaving standing access to critical cloud infrastructure is maybe not the best idea sprinkled around the organization.
Ian [0:35:51]: That’s how I gotta be used someone lateral on this.
Ian [0:35:54]: That becomes a very interesting business resiliency conversation.
Ian [0:35:59]: It’s not about an identity conversation.
Ian [0:36:01]: We just happen to hold the controls here, and that’s powerful.
Ian [0:36:05]: Right?
Ian [0:36:06]: As practitioners get more seasoned and think about framing identity in terms of business resiliency, enterprise risk mitigation and customer experience, does become super fun.
Ian [0:36:19]: En advertising conversations, board level conversations.
Ian [0:36:22]: And to me, that has been a very satisfying thing to see happen is the transformation of sort of identity as, oh, that’s just the team that feels the password reset.
Ian [0:36:34]: Questions to the people that actually have an active hand to play and what our business resiliency strategy is.
Ian [0:36:41]: That’s a powerful thing.
Gerry [0:36:43]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:36:43]: Absolutely.
Gerry [0:36:43]: You know, identity systems have become one of the key control planes within an organization.
Gerry [0:36:49]: You know, it’s sort standalone alone or above or aside from security, you, writ large.
Gerry [0:36:55]: And who has not received some notification in the mail?
Gerry [0:37:00]: Oh, here’s your free one year identity theft you know, monitoring because you’ve been victim of an identity breach somewhere.
Gerry [0:37:07]: I mean, so it…
Gerry [0:37:08]: You know, the awareness is certainly out there, like, it never has been before.
Mark [0:37:12]: Well, yeah…
Mark [0:37:13]: I mean, you you…
Mark [0:37:13]: So I had the benefit of Gerry working with them alongside you for for many years, And I just gonna shift gears to one of mentorship, And you talked about surrounding yourself with the smartest people you can find, and and I got lucky enough.
Mark [0:37:26]: I found I’m Gerry, So I got to learn quite a bit from him along the way.
Mark [0:37:28]: Mentorship.
Mark [0:37:29]: You know, when I see you post on Id Pro and ask a question.
Mark [0:37:32]: I’m like, ian house account must have gotten hacked.
Mark [0:37:34]: He’s care asking a question.
Mark [0:37:36]: He knows everything.
Mark [0:37:36]: But you it admittedly don’t, and that’s awesome.
Mark [0:37:40]: Where do you look for mentorship or how would you recommend the the folks watching, think about seeking out those…
Mark [0:37:46]: The smartest people that they can surround themselves with?
Ian [0:37:49]: So couple things.
Ian [0:37:50]: One, if you’re newer in your career in this industry, finding local meetups, joining Id pro, great things you can do.
Ian [0:37:59]: Track the identity gang.
Mark [0:38:01]: Yeah.
Mark [0:38:01]: Because
Ian [0:38:02]: there’s one now and every
Mark [0:38:03]: start one
Ian [0:38:04]: or start walk, reach out to Aspen, Est Ball, and you will help you.
Ian [0:38:08]: That has been an amazing grassroots thing.
Ian [0:38:11]: So first and foremost, it’s about human connection.
Ian [0:38:13]: And before you get to get in the state of asking around mentorship.
Ian [0:38:17]: Because from human connection comes, hey.
Ian [0:38:20]: Can I ask you a question comes, hey, you went rep lunch sometime, then becomes a lasting relationship?
Ian [0:38:27]: You know, that…
Ian [0:38:28]: I’ve been very fortunate enough to build friendships for a lifetime through this industry.
Ian [0:38:33]: And, that wasn’t necessarily sort of mentorship so.
Ian [0:38:38]: That was simply, hey.
Ian [0:38:40]: We’re all traveling on this crazy schedule, and we’re all drinking the same crappy conference coffee, and it becomes bonding sort thing.
Ian [0:38:49]: Local meetups so the same opportunity.
Ian [0:38:51]: I think that’s very powerful.
Ian [0:38:52]: I think if you’ve been doing this a while, it isn’t incumbent on you to make it easier for the people that are doing it now.
Ian [0:38:59]: Because it took a long time to learn how to do identity for you if you were been more seasoned.
Ian [0:39:06]: And this is absolutely incumbent because like, what?
Ian [0:39:11]: I’m not as safest.
Ian [0:39:12]: I don’t want it to be as hard for other people as it was for us.
Ian [0:39:15]: That’s like…
Ian [0:39:15]: That’s just ridiculous.
Ian [0:39:16]: You know, Always had this image of, like, we built this great treehouse and then pull the ladder up and I’m like, nope.
Ian [0:39:21]: We don’t need any more practitioners.
Ian [0:39:22]: Utter total lie.
Ian [0:39:24]: Like, we need ten times more practitioners in this space.
Ian [0:39:27]: So giving back could be very small.
Ian [0:39:29]: Right?
Ian [0:39:29]: It’s simply, like, within the organization.
Ian [0:39:31]: You know, is there weekly tech talks, you can give about what identity means and what you’re doing with it Or inside your organization?
Ian [0:39:38]: You know, Do you have junior that are coming up and that you can help out that you can say, like, you know what?
Ian [0:39:42]: I don’t need to go to this conference.
Ian [0:39:44]: I’m not speaking at it Why don’t you go instead.
Ian [0:39:46]: Like, you can take my slot.
Ian [0:39:47]: Like, that means a lot.
Ian [0:39:49]: That means an awful lot.
Ian [0:39:51]: And then lastly, like, don’t…
Ian [0:39:54]: Don’t think you don’t have a voice in this.
Ian [0:39:57]: Right?
Ian [0:39:58]: It’s not like there’s some chosen group of people that get to dictate all these things.
Ian [0:40:02]: These are just people.
Ian [0:40:03]: And, yeah, they’re some voices.
Ian [0:40:06]: Some of them actually like, have good things to say.
Ian [0:40:10]: Def defending in the day, but that can be you too.
Ian [0:40:13]: Right?
Ian [0:40:13]: There’s no assertive of pre selection about this.
Ian [0:40:16]: Identity is a welcoming world.
Ian [0:40:17]: And he doesn’t come on us to continue to make so.
Ian [0:40:22]: And it is incumbent upon us to continue to remove barriers of participation so that more people can join and learn the same things we have.
Gerry [0:40:31]: Yeah.
Gerry [0:40:31]: And, I think it’s been our experience that, you, the identity community is I don’t know if there’s another industry or segment of an industry that’s more welcoming or more c than than this one.
Gerry [0:40:42]: I mean, yeah, we have our debates, you know, and even arguments, but it’s like everyone everyone is is welcome Absolutely.
Gerry [0:40:48]: Hundred percent.
Mark [0:40:49]: Ian, this was awesome.
Mark [0:40:50]: This…
Mark [0:40:51]: I really appreciate that taking time.
Mark [0:40:52]: I think we have an idea for another conversation out about some of that esoteric history of identity that we’ll maybe tease that a little bit later as well, but We’ve hard asked one last thing and and and just thinking forward about, like, you know, the other folks who have really made some interesting impacts on the industry.
Mark [0:41:09]: Who might you recommend that we connect with next as we’re thinking about the identity here series.
Mark [0:41:14]: Who would who would make another.
Mark [0:41:15]: Maybe someone who isn’t this culprit high profile We don’t see on stage all time.
Mark [0:41:19]: Is there anyone that jumps out
Ian [0:41:20]: Let’s see.
Ian [0:41:21]: First off, nah, Psycho pay ding if you haven’t already got those folks lined up, Like, I don’t know what you’re do.
Ian [0:41:28]: Like, why are you wasting have with me.
Ian [0:41:29]: Less known and talk to talk to people like Aaron Crow, who’s who is just absolutely a superstar, now running identity over at Mongodb, or Elizabeth Ga, who’s been helping out die an open Id foundation.
Ian [0:41:45]: And, obviously, heather they’re flanagan again.
Ian [0:41:47]: Who’s the unseen hand throughout all of identity.
Mark [0:41:50]: Oh, we got it or we got it or was there.
Mark [0:41:52]: Yeah.
Ian [0:41:53]: So, like, those are some.
Ian [0:41:54]: They’ll give you more.
Mark [0:41:56]: Awesome.
Mark [0:41:56]: We will do that.
Mark [0:41:57]: Well, Gerry, any last questions for Ian.
Ian [0:42:00]: No.
Ian [0:42:00]: I feel like we’ve we just touched the surface though No.
Mark [0:42:03]: I know.
Mark [0:42:03]: I feel so badly, but I see there’s
Ian [0:42:05]: so many things we did talk about white why Do better can’t good to Tee.
Ian [0:42:08]: And you know, pictures of cats.
Ian [0:42:13]: In presentations which, If you were lucky enough to be at F last week.
Ian [0:42:19]: You got to see will give an crushing keynote that also had internet cat memes involved.
Ian [0:42:26]: So she’s given the master class.
Ian [0:42:28]: So just give up.
Ian [0:42:29]: If you’re trying to, get a keynote nine the.
Ian [0:42:32]: Like, there’s just…
Ian [0:42:33]: There’s just…
Ian [0:42:34]: There’s a lot.
Ian [0:42:35]: There’s a lot of ground there.
Gerry [0:42:37]: Understanding.
Gerry [0:42:37]: Another destiny standing.
Gerry [0:42:38]: That’s outstanding.
Gerry [0:42:39]: Well, thanks Ian for joining us.
Gerry [0:42:41]: Really appreciate it.
Ian [0:42:42]: Thank you so much Absolutely.
Mark [0:42:43]: This was awesome.
Mark [0:42:43]: And Gerry, thank you for as always to our audience.
Mark [0:42:46]: You know, thank you for joining us and spending the time.
Mark [0:42:48]: Ian, this is great.
Mark [0:42:49]: Wait.
Mark [0:42:49]: It gives us a chance to to share your story.
Mark [0:42:52]: You you are so human so approachable.
Mark [0:42:54]: I think a lot of folks would be maybe intimidated.
Mark [0:42:56]: They shouldn’t be.
Mark [0:42:57]: They should know that you’re just, like everyone else and don’t know all the things but are learning all the time.
Mark [0:43:02]: And and and so thank you for for spending time with us.
Mark [0:43:04]: Hope to see you on the next episode, and we’ll see you soon.
Mark [0:43:07]: Take care.
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